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	<title>Comments on: Bhutan: Signs, Signs, Everywhere a Sign</title>
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	<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-996</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-996</guid>
		<description>The best part of a blog w/comments is that you may be surprised where the conversation goes.

The worst part of a blog/w comments is that you can't control where the conversation goes.

But sometimes the worst leads to the best. And sometimes...not.

T, I think, because you hate my devil advocating(rarely my goal these days), you took my first post too personally. On the other hand, I should have done a better job of saying, "Have all the Yes voters considered this?" and gone from there. 

Dahab's post, being that it is a first-hand account, articulates the issue quite well. Thus, I have nothing to add.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best part of a blog w/comments is that you may be surprised where the conversation goes.</p>
<p>The worst part of a blog/w comments is that you can&#8217;t control where the conversation goes.</p>
<p>But sometimes the worst leads to the best. And sometimes&#8230;not.</p>
<p>T, I think, because you hate my devil advocating(rarely my goal these days), you took my first post too personally. On the other hand, I should have done a better job of saying, &#8220;Have all the Yes voters considered this?&#8221; and gone from there. </p>
<p>Dahab&#8217;s post, being that it is a first-hand account, articulates the issue quite well. Thus, I have nothing to add.</p>
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		<title>By: Theresa</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-993</link>
		<dc:creator>Theresa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 02:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-993</guid>
		<description>This post and the related responses have been very interesting to me. First, I didn't expect the vote to be so overwhelmingly in the "Go" column. I thought more people would balk at the cost. Second, I didn't expect the conversation it would inspire about the cost/value of travel. But I do think that's a very valuable conversation. It's definitely something Jeff and I have considered, though I'm not sure we've discussed it here, or at least point blank. So Matthew, even though you know how much your devil's advocating can drive me mad (oh, you have a way like no other), thanks for getting that started. And don't take this comment as the end of the conversation. If you have something more to contribute (or you just want to register your vote), please do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post and the related responses have been very interesting to me. First, I didn&#8217;t expect the vote to be so overwhelmingly in the &#8220;Go&#8221; column. I thought more people would balk at the cost. Second, I didn&#8217;t expect the conversation it would inspire about the cost/value of travel. But I do think that&#8217;s a very valuable conversation. It&#8217;s definitely something Jeff and I have considered, though I&#8217;m not sure we&#8217;ve discussed it here, or at least point blank. So Matthew, even though you know how much your devil&#8217;s advocating can drive me mad (oh, you have a way like no other), thanks for getting that started. And don&#8217;t take this comment as the end of the conversation. If you have something more to contribute (or you just want to register your vote), please do.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-992</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 01:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-992</guid>
		<description>Go. That's all I have on the topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go. That&#8217;s all I have on the topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dahab</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator>Dahab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 00:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-991</guid>
		<description>Matthew does have a point, and it's an issue that I have spent a lot of time thinking about. My husband and I talk about it all the time. Every time we visited a place that seemed special &#38; still relatively untouched, we felt a very selfish desire keep it "pure" (whatever that means) and free from the influence of western society. On the other hand, we recognized that it wasn't our place to try to "protect" a place from western influence, and that such an attitude is the ultimate in western hubris. If a country wants McDonalds and Madonna, who are we to tell them it's wrong? But the point he's making is valid--our visit there was changing the place, and our desire to see an untouristed part of the world was leading to the very change that we decried. It's a very difficult issue, and one that I certainly haven't resolved entirely for myself. The problem is that, after a while, you realize that this sort of thinking doesn't get you anywhere--it's classic navel-gazing. The fact is, taking a RTW trip--or any vacation--is inherently selfish. There's no getting around that. We travel to better ourselves (but then, isn't the same true of education?). Whether we're traveling to get a tan, sample a foreign cuisine, or learn a foreign language, it's self-indulgent. Even volunteer vacation are, IMO, generally pretty selfish (as Theresa noted in a great post a while back). We're incredibly fortunate to live in the U.S. and to have a standard of living that allows us to visit other countries. We can feel guilty about it, and never leave home, or we can travel responsibly and try to have a net positive impact on the world. 

I do think it's important to keep in mind what impact you're having when you travel. There's a fine line between exploration and exploitation, and that line is different for everyone. My own way of traveling responsibly is to always try to give my money to the local economy (hire local guides, not American/international companies, stay with locals when possible, eat at local restaurants, etc.), and to avoid visiting places where I feel like local communities are being exploited for commercial gain (I refuse to visit the "long neck" tribes in Thailand for this reason, though I understand others feel differently). I do believe that responsible tourism is possible. We saw a lot of examples on our trip of tourism that had a strong community development component. Bhutan is definitely trying to use tourism to raise the country's standard of living (and it's working, at least from what we saw). Tourists aren't forcing themselves on the country; the government made a conscious decision to open its borders, and is doing a very good job of keeping tourism from becoming exploitive. There are many other great examples of community-guided tourism that seem to be win-win situations for both the tourists and the local communities. 

Sorry for the super-long post. This issue just struck a nerve because it's something I think about often, and am trying to resolve in my own head. In the end, I guess everyone just has to do what they're comfortable with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew does have a point, and it&#8217;s an issue that I have spent a lot of time thinking about. My husband and I talk about it all the time. Every time we visited a place that seemed special &amp; still relatively untouched, we felt a very selfish desire keep it &#8220;pure&#8221; (whatever that means) and free from the influence of western society. On the other hand, we recognized that it wasn&#8217;t our place to try to &#8220;protect&#8221; a place from western influence, and that such an attitude is the ultimate in western hubris. If a country wants McDonalds and Madonna, who are we to tell them it&#8217;s wrong? But the point he&#8217;s making is valid&#8211;our visit there was changing the place, and our desire to see an untouristed part of the world was leading to the very change that we decried. It&#8217;s a very difficult issue, and one that I certainly haven&#8217;t resolved entirely for myself. The problem is that, after a while, you realize that this sort of thinking doesn&#8217;t get you anywhere&#8211;it&#8217;s classic navel-gazing. The fact is, taking a RTW trip&#8211;or any vacation&#8211;is inherently selfish. There&#8217;s no getting around that. We travel to better ourselves (but then, isn&#8217;t the same true of education?). Whether we&#8217;re traveling to get a tan, sample a foreign cuisine, or learn a foreign language, it&#8217;s self-indulgent. Even volunteer vacation are, IMO, generally pretty selfish (as Theresa noted in a great post a while back). We&#8217;re incredibly fortunate to live in the U.S. and to have a standard of living that allows us to visit other countries. We can feel guilty about it, and never leave home, or we can travel responsibly and try to have a net positive impact on the world. </p>
<p>I do think it&#8217;s important to keep in mind what impact you&#8217;re having when you travel. There&#8217;s a fine line between exploration and exploitation, and that line is different for everyone. My own way of traveling responsibly is to always try to give my money to the local economy (hire local guides, not American/international companies, stay with locals when possible, eat at local restaurants, etc.), and to avoid visiting places where I feel like local communities are being exploited for commercial gain (I refuse to visit the &#8220;long neck&#8221; tribes in Thailand for this reason, though I understand others feel differently). I do believe that responsible tourism is possible. We saw a lot of examples on our trip of tourism that had a strong community development component. Bhutan is definitely trying to use tourism to raise the country&#8217;s standard of living (and it&#8217;s working, at least from what we saw). Tourists aren&#8217;t forcing themselves on the country; the government made a conscious decision to open its borders, and is doing a very good job of keeping tourism from becoming exploitive. There are many other great examples of community-guided tourism that seem to be win-win situations for both the tourists and the local communities. </p>
<p>Sorry for the super-long post. This issue just struck a nerve because it&#8217;s something I think about often, and am trying to resolve in my own head. In the end, I guess everyone just has to do what they&#8217;re comfortable with.</p>
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		<title>By: Nomadic Matt</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-990</link>
		<dc:creator>Nomadic Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-990</guid>
		<description>If you have the means, go to Bhutan.  Like you said, its hard to get to and you'll be in the area. Bhutan is an amazing travel place and one I will be going to next year. It's worth the money. Everyone I've known who has gone has said nothing but great things.

Splurge a little. The experience will be worth it!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you have the means, go to Bhutan.  Like you said, its hard to get to and you&#8217;ll be in the area. Bhutan is an amazing travel place and one I will be going to next year. It&#8217;s worth the money. Everyone I&#8217;ve known who has gone has said nothing but great things.</p>
<p>Splurge a little. The experience will be worth it!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Theresa</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator>Theresa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 17:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-989</guid>
		<description>Wow, someone's in a snarky, holier-than-thou mood today aren't they, Matthew? If you want to think about things on that level shouldn't you just go ahead and ask the broader question of what value anyone of us is actually having in our own countries, or even more broadly, just being alive? 

I think the value that one brings to one self, to another country, and to the world in general through travel isn't something very easily classified or even well understood until you yourself go out and do it. Not all situations can be approached from an academic standpoint. 

Obviously, Bhutan sees some value in having visitors, otherwise they would not have opened their doors to them in 1974. This isn't an invasion or an unwanted guest banging on the door and demanding entrance. I think it's their right to pursue tourism in whichever way they wish, whether that be by opening their doors wider or closing them right back up. The traveler's responsibility then is to respect their wishes. The changes happening in Bhutan are actually coming from the inside (witness the King's decision to transition to democracy for one), and it's not my right to tell them to stop or to demand that they maintain their traditions or whatever. I think one of the biggest problems of the developed world and its people is an attitude that we know what is best for the rest of the world and should tell others how to do things. Not everyone works in the same paradigms we do. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, someone&#8217;s in a snarky, holier-than-thou mood today aren&#8217;t they, Matthew? If you want to think about things on that level shouldn&#8217;t you just go ahead and ask the broader question of what value anyone of us is actually having in our own countries, or even more broadly, just being alive? </p>
<p>I think the value that one brings to one self, to another country, and to the world in general through travel isn&#8217;t something very easily classified or even well understood until you yourself go out and do it. Not all situations can be approached from an academic standpoint. </p>
<p>Obviously, Bhutan sees some value in having visitors, otherwise they would not have opened their doors to them in 1974. This isn&#8217;t an invasion or an unwanted guest banging on the door and demanding entrance. I think it&#8217;s their right to pursue tourism in whichever way they wish, whether that be by opening their doors wider or closing them right back up. The traveler&#8217;s responsibility then is to respect their wishes. The changes happening in Bhutan are actually coming from the inside (witness the King&#8217;s decision to transition to democracy for one), and it&#8217;s not my right to tell them to stop or to demand that they maintain their traditions or whatever. I think one of the biggest problems of the developed world and its people is an attitude that we know what is best for the rest of the world and should tell others how to do things. Not everyone works in the same paradigms we do.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-988</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-988</guid>
		<description>But what about this damn book your writing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But what about this damn book your writing?</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-987</link>
		<dc:creator>Lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-987</guid>
		<description>Why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-986</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-986</guid>
		<description>The idea that you have to go there before it changes(as Dahab claims) seems like a leaky idea when you consider that it is your tourism that is (maybe, partially) contributing to this change.

This is a complicated idea -- the country is financially benefiting from your travel, demand is greater than supply so someone is going to take your spots if you don't take them, you have very little control over Western expansion into the country, etc -- but, personally, I'd feel wrong about being part of this intrusion.

Maybe if you more outlined how your intrusion benefits the people of Bhutan, I could be persuaded of the need. Even then, I don't see you having an experience in Bhutan that leads you to convince people not to visit. Maybe you have such a great experience that you invest time in working for the continuation of responsible tourism(which seems to be the approach right now). Great tourism experiences, alas, lead to greater tourism experiences.

I guess a RTW trip is a selfish endeavor by nature. Your whole post is centered in what you and Jeff will get out of the trip into Bhutan, and the other comments seem to be feeding that monster. I didn't vote because I don't see it as a practical money issue. As you have outlined the idea(and that's about all I know other than the GNH kernel which I had read about in the book "Deep Economy"), I don't see what value your intrusion into the country adds to anyone but yourself(s). But, hey, maybe that's the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that you have to go there before it changes(as Dahab claims) seems like a leaky idea when you consider that it is your tourism that is (maybe, partially) contributing to this change.</p>
<p>This is a complicated idea &#8212; the country is financially benefiting from your travel, demand is greater than supply so someone is going to take your spots if you don&#8217;t take them, you have very little control over Western expansion into the country, etc &#8212; but, personally, I&#8217;d feel wrong about being part of this intrusion.</p>
<p>Maybe if you more outlined how your intrusion benefits the people of Bhutan, I could be persuaded of the need. Even then, I don&#8217;t see you having an experience in Bhutan that leads you to convince people not to visit. Maybe you have such a great experience that you invest time in working for the continuation of responsible tourism(which seems to be the approach right now). Great tourism experiences, alas, lead to greater tourism experiences.</p>
<p>I guess a RTW trip is a selfish endeavor by nature. Your whole post is centered in what you and Jeff will get out of the trip into Bhutan, and the other comments seem to be feeding that monster. I didn&#8217;t vote because I don&#8217;t see it as a practical money issue. As you have outlined the idea(and that&#8217;s about all I know other than the GNH kernel which I had read about in the book &#8220;Deep Economy&#8221;), I don&#8217;t see what value your intrusion into the country adds to anyone but yourself(s). But, hey, maybe that&#8217;s the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth</title>
		<link>http://livesofwander.com/2008/06/12/bhutan-signs-signs-everywhere-a-sign/#comment-985</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://livesofwander.com/?p=241#comment-985</guid>
		<description>This is a chance of a lifetime.  Spend the money, you have lived frugally to be able to embrace these opportunities.  I don't think you will regret spending a cent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a chance of a lifetime.  Spend the money, you have lived frugally to be able to embrace these opportunities.  I don&#8217;t think you will regret spending a cent.</p>
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